Thoughts on just being a guy
Male orgasms are terrific fun. As most guys only gradually learn, an orgasm is much more than just that final moment of intense herky jerky pleasure when muscles in the groin area begin to involuntarily contract over and over in a rhythmic motion although I have to admit that this is one of the greatest moments of pleasure in life for any guy. Guys quickly get “hooked” on the sensations. I think I was hooked myself at about age 12. Of course, like any other guy my age I was more than a little scared at first, and not quite sure what was happening to me and my body was OK and normal, whether I was doing something to myself that I shouldn’t be doing.
There were all sorts of unanswered questions. I instantly loved the sensations I was experiencing, As an adult I have long been studying the intricate details of what goes on both leading up to and then during an orgasm, and what I have learned says that orgasms get a hold of the most profound pleasure centers of the brain, the same pleasure centers and via very similar chemical mechanisms that are involved in drug addictions, or for that matter addictions of any sort.
A lot of this is basic biology involving the continuation of the species etc. Nature has this goofy way of finding schemes that ensure that species will continue, and human sex is not really that different from what goes on elsewhere with all forms of life. The mechanisms that work for each form of life differ of course, perhaps drastically, but of necessity life ordinarily finds a way. What we deal with as humans and as males is simply what we got stuck with as another form of life.
Ahhh if it were only all that simple. But there are all sorts of messy parts, parts that do not seem to fit in the way that seems obvious. To be sure, if the goal of human sex is to continue the species, why isn’t male sex always focused just on how to find a suitable sexual partner, presuming the female necessary for the species to continue to propagate? After all, we males are only half the puzzle, and some would argue that indeed we are the least important of the two halves.
But then, why are we set up this way. My first orgasm certainly did not happen in the presence of another human being, male or female. This all happened while I was simply messing around happily discovering something I could do to and with my own body that felt really really good. Of course the big question that eluded me was whether the other guys my age were undergoing something very similar and ending up basically where I was ending up. This was a variation on the questions that I believe most young guys attempt to deal with. Am I normal? Am I somehow hurting myself if I do this again? Are all the other guys my age asking similar questions?
So, as a young adolescent I was largely ignorant about a lot of things kids the same age nowadays are fully aware of. Heck, all of the stuff you supposedly need to know about human sexuality can be found either on the Internet or even on cable TV. Or can it?
Having said that I do not regard my experiences growing up in the early days as being somehow inferior to the situation kids face right now. For me, this uncertainty was also an age of discovery and learning, and that meant running some experiments using my own body. Now these were experiments I could run myself, in private. assuming I had a degree of time to myself.
As a young person, I manage to get a neat little 150-power microscope one Christmas. I had great fun with that. I learned I could simply take some grass or hay and leave it in a small pan of water for a few days. Then, use an eye dropper to place some of this swampy water on a glass slide and under the 150- power microscope and, lo and behold, I could see all sorts of living creatures swimming around in the water. Big amoeba, but lots of smaller things too, going in every direction. These creatures each had names, and I could look them up in my old encyclopedias What fun!
Then, at some point I fully realized that my ejaculate after an orgasm contained sperm. It was only natural for me to start wondering what would happen if I stuck a small sample of my own semen under the same microscope. Were sperm big enough so that I could see them too? The tricky part, of course, was in order to run this experiment I would need to be at a time and place where I could masturbate without fear of interruption, ejaculate, and then get the semen sample on the microscope slide quickly for examination under only the 150-power magnification.
Turns out, the opportunity presented itself with some quiet, uninterrupted time. I got the slide, and indeed, not only could I see the sperm and their rapidly-moving tails, but they were swimming relentlessly in every direction. What a great moment for scientific discovery!
But let me warn you. I do not want to plant ideas in your head. I do not want to encourage anyone to engage in self-abuse, which is a necessary step in order to run this experiment. Sex is all about being there so that human beings can engage in reproduction, not running silly experiments in science.
Or is it?…
just like this, pretty much...
So I suppose that the sequence of events I went through as a young male was not that much different from what other males growing up go through, but just like every other guy my age there is lots of stuff going on in both my brain and my body, and every guy probably goes through stages where he feels that he has somehow got something going on inside that is unique or not the same thing other guys are experiencing. So too, with me.
At that early age most guys are only vaguely aware that sex has something to do with developing a relationship and finding a partner for having sex (or intercourse). Obviously there is lots of information out there on the subject that guys only gradually and often surreptitiously become aware of, but the problem is that the information that is out there often seems disorganized and disjointed. For example, do guys basically have sex with a female partner first and then work at developing a relationship of some sort? If guys used coming-of-age movies as core sources of information about how two people get to the point where they are having intercourse, one could easily conclude that partner sex precedes getting into a loving relationship. Does the real world operate in that mode as well? Good question, especially for a 12 or 13-year old. That leads guys back to the “normal” thoughts they have about how their parents met, fell in love and had sex. Obviously the fact that the guy is here in itself is proof that SOMETHING must have gone on that was quite “physical” as difficult as that is sometimes for young guys to believe.
Then there is all the other stuff going on. Pre-puberty, most guys are at least aware of the fact that they are carrying around stuff hanging beneath the groin that seems very touch-sensitive, but this only really becomes attention-grabbing once puberty starts to set in. Suddenly there is that distinct tensing situation in which the penis seems to feel “tight” (filling with blood, of course) and some crazy-seeming links between that sensation and how a guy copes with the situation in his brain. Suddenly it occurs to the guy that his own brain is really not that far separated from his groin. This is surely interesting, but also disconcerting at least at first. Complicated stuff. Really complicated.
Worse, guys are quickly “conditioned” to the idea that sexual feelings and sexual relationships are so intertwined that no guy dare admit to having sexual feelings that are NOT brought on by being with a sexual partner.
Yet, as any guy realizes, reality is anything but that. Young males have sexual thoughts and feelings regularly in the absence of a partner. Old males do too, but at least they are normally better able to cope with the situation. Still, for a young guy, terror would be getting an erection in the presence of other males, say in a gym locker room. Holy terror would be for this erection to get so strong that the guy goes into a full-scale ejaculation mode with other guys present. Getting into a situation like this is a nightmarish thought for most young guys.
Still, guys soon realize that the sensations associated with getting erect and then ejaculating are terrific fun at some core level, but it’s just that you generally don’t want to get stuck in a situation where this happens with your male buds present because that could get dicey. So generally, guys try to avoid getting themselves caught up in situations in which this has a probability of happening.
Interestingly enough, snug-fitting clothing of various sorts can act as a “triggering” mechanism, and often time clothing worn in a gym or sports situation. There are any number of items that can be a potential problem in this regard. And guys tend to steer clear of situations where they think they will be “forced” to wear something that could act as an erection triggering mechanism.
That, in a nutshell is why masturbation involving specific items of snug-fitting clothing is very much a solo activity for most guys. I could easily develop a list of specific items probably most guys would love to jerk off in, but never mind that guys are really wary about revealing what is going on to any of their male friends or female friends for that matter. After all, sexual feelings and sexual relationships with another person are hopelessly intertwined, (or are they?).
Still, guys bouncing out of puberty are likely growing rapidly which means they are quickly growing out of clothing that only recently was sized correctly. Everything you wore last summer is now just a little too snug. Underwear, jeans, swimwear, etc etc. But by this time it’s a rare guy who hasn’t discovered that the stuff that is now too snug often sets up for some interesting sensations in the groin area, so guys often dig into the back of a dresser drawer to wear some of these older items from another time. Wait, what the guy thought would be uncomfortable now feels, well, in a strange way, interesting, and that basic sensation of tenseness is starting to take over in my head. That is not a bad feeling at all. Indeed it feels neat. I wonder if other guys know about this.
To be continued…
Once puberty arrives, I suspect that most guys almost immediately first get enamored with what happens to their bodies when they are on the verge of ejaculation. In particular, the sensations that they feel as the male body is at the very verge of ejaculation, and then the wonderfully repetitive pulses that take place as semen is ejaculated. It takes some time to appreciate that these wonderful sensations are being experienced at least as much in the brain as they are in the genitalia and that the two parts of the body are in fact completely linked together.
Still, this is all complicated not simple stuff to understand. Surely every male wants to become an expert in the subject of penis sensitivity and exactly how it is linked to how hard a guy is. One of the super interesting things about the male body is how even a slightly-hard penis suddenly becomes much more touch sensitive and pleasant to rub or stroke. Then there is the issue of the sensitivity of the various parts of the penis, the top of the shaft versus the underside, the glans versus the base of the shaft etc. Don’t get me wrong: as the penis engorges with blood the whole thing becomes sensitive and responsive to anything that touches or even brushes against it. It is just that as all of this is going on some parts seem, well, more interesting than others. The glans area of even a partially-hard penis can be extremely touch-sensitive and guys quickly learn that if they for some reason need to get off quickly that is where to focus.
Lives of young males quickly get complicated. Every guy needs to go through something of a learning experience that enables a guy to better understand all of this, and learning takes time, and usually a degree of privacy. A lot of guys are embarrassed to admit this and like to act as if that on the day of their first ejaculation somehow they already knew everything that they needed to know. This, of course, is not the case, and the whole subject becomes a lifelong learning experience.
Then all of this gets messed together with the experience of forming a sexual bond with another person. Many guys seem to think that somehow they can go directly into a sexual relationship of some sort with another person without fully having run the solo experiments necessary to better understand how their own body responds sexually. This becomes a foolish thing to do. There is a learning process that needs to go on here, and often times this learning is better accomplished without dealing with the additional complexities of dealing with a relationship with another person—perhaps another person coming from a very different perspective.
Generally, most guys seem to think that all their peer males are able to navigate all of this without a hitch and in general have greater knowledge of the subject, but in general this is not true at all. The shy, nerdy introvert may have an advantage over the outgoing guy who appears to be “popular” with the girls in this regard. No two guys are the same in this respect and they should not assume that they are somehow seeing this all in the same fashion. The guy who has spent time experimenting by himself in private may have some real advantages over the guy who somehow believes that engaging in such experiments are both nerdy and childish not to mention embarrassing to admit to. Like I say, this is complicated stuff.
So, initially guys frequently get very fond of how they feel as full-blown ejaculation takes place. Only later, perhaps much later, do guys learn that the events that take place from the very start (as the guy describes himself as just starting to feel horny) begin to take on more significance. This is part of the male sexuality learning process that I believe is extremely important for every guy.
Another way of looking at this is that it suggests that guys should experiment with their own bodies more often not less and justify this on the basis that each experience adds to the knowledge base as to what is really interesting and fun to experience. OK so this is a call to engage in more male self-abuse (masturbation) not less and that guys should be given the opportunity for private time suitable for running experiments. At this point I could suggest some specific techniques here but I will hold off on that for now. For now I will only say that there is stuff you can do in private that feels really good and is basically perfectly safe to do without getting yourself or anyone else in an unwanted predicament. Further, not every guy has a partner for sex: many do not, and it is not correct to assume that these guys are unhappy and frustrated with life in general. Indeed, these guys have figured SOMETHING out that sustains them sexually. In the absence of a sexual partner, you can accomplish the same thing as well.
To be continued...
A few questions to ponder. For me, going through puberty was this confusing mix of holy terror and sheer fun. I never have determined if I was different from the other guys my age, or whether this crazy mixture of terror and sheer joy is pretty much the norm. I keep thinking about the same “stupid” questions.
For example, what does any guy recall about the situation surrounding your first genuine real orgasm? Were you alone or was someone else there with you when it happened? In a lot of respects, being alone eliminates a lot of issues or problems relating to how another person or persons might react to your situation, although you cannot always expect for this to go smoothly.
What do you recall with respect to any instances you had in which an obvious erection and perhaps even a full-scale ejaculation occurred at an inopportune or inappropriate, time or place? Growing up this sometimes happened to me just riding along in a car or school bus, and then I had to figure out a way to get out of the vehicle I was riding in without anyone noticing what had happened to me. Invariably, I thought the orgasm was really fun, but the tricky part was what happened afterwards.
What were the circumstances in which you first discovered that you were producing precum? How did this situation happen? Did you at first think you were on the verge of ejaculating? Why or why not?
What were your early experiences in wearing clothing that fit a little snug. When I was growing up, perhaps 95 percent of the guys wore white cotton briefs (tighty whiteys). I always thought I was the lone exception as my mom bought me cotton boxer briefs which were made like real briefs but with slightly longer legs. Once I started making my own underwear purchases I immediately went to the standard briefs and have never looked back.
Of course, from the 1980s on, more and more guys started to routinely wear loose-fitting cotton boxer shorts usually in a color other than white instead of briefs. I’ve never quite determined whether or not this was in part related to the concern that guys had about getting an inadvertent erection in the presence of other guys and the fact that a snugger-fitting cotton brief would reveal more about the state of a guy’s penis than a loose-fitting pair of boxer shorts would.
My “problem” was that I quickly developed a fondness for wearing white cotton brief, in part because I liked how my penis felt inside a snug-fitting brief. Maybe this was in part because I was denied this experience early in life of wearing snug-fitting briefs. And if an inadvertent erection happened this was no big deal. I was becoming something of an expert at hiding the condition I was in.
I don’t recall ever not being interested in wearing snug-fitting clothing of all sorts, brief underwear, skinny jeans, compression gear, and yes, swim briefs. I kept admiring the other guys who were able to do likewise.
Of course, the last question has to be to recall your first encounters with a snug-fitting swim brief.
To be continued…
A lot of guys seem to be very embarrassed even by the mere thought of having some fun down there by yourself, even though at some level a lot of them realize that this is a most “natural” thing to do. If masturbation were somehow the wrong thing for a guy to engage in, the obvious question is why most guys if given an appropriate opportunity would engage in it on a regular basis. At some stage in life I suppose guys encounter all sorts of things that they think would be fun but for whatever reason are told or decide not to do. Solo sex is just another item on the list, or is it?
Still, aside from the privacy and not wanting others to know what you are doing, masturbation has far fewer issues than, say, partner sex, the latter immediately creates a lot of problems and issues, some of them potentially major, and potentially far more complicated than merely being discovered by someone else that you are engaging in solo sex, that someone being a parent, sibling, or perhaps a peer friend of either sex. However, guys spend a lot of time and energy in an effort to make certain that any solo efforts remain private, lest word get out and issues occur because of that.
Then there is the issue of what happens if a guy discovers that he likes to use an inanimate object in conjunction with the solo sex play. What kind of an inanimate object? Some are easier to-hide and explain away than others. A battery-powered vibrator might be easier to explain away than a simple cotton brief, for example. A colorful swim brief in a stretchy fabric might be more difficult to explain than a cotton brief normally worn as underwear. And so on.
Guys generally enjoy but are embarrassed about the whole subject and to the extent that a particular item helps a guy get off, it is best if the item is easily obtained and can be readily explained by what appears to be a simple plausible explanation, or can be readily hidden away. A guy who likes to wear a jock strap for this purpose has an easier time of it if he engage in a sport where a claim can be needed that the strap is “needed” for the sport than would be the case for a guy who wants to do this but is not involved in any sport that would call for one.
And, to be sure, a lot of this stuff that guys get interested in with respect to this are at some level related to sport whether the sport be swimming, football, wrestling or others. A lot of non-athletes deeply admire peers who are in part because they get to wear these and have a logical rationale. For example, what guy who has never worn a strap or a swim brief not secretly wondered how his body would feel if he could do so? And that thought only makes the longing stronger.
To be continued...
One of the strangest and yet most fascinating aspects of human sexuality is how the physical and the psychological parts somehow get glued together in strange and yet at times wonderful, almost magical, ways. The two aspects at times are almost impossible to unravel and every guy starts to realize that this gets even more difficult to unravel as to what exactly is causing what at each moment in time.
All of this of course is linked to how a guy is feeling in his brain moment-by-moment and is at the core of developing a sexual relationship with another person. This is part of a normal relationship setting that we get to observe over and over in the movies and, for that matter, the collection of stuff that every guy (and woman) encounters and accumulates during a lifetime.
But guys sometimes, perhaps frequently, encounter situations in which the sexual wiring is energized both in the brain and in the groin without anything going on in the sexual partner- relationship department. Guys generally discover that this can happen at puberty or perhaps even before, and most guys when they discover this are embarrassed to even admit that such things can and frequently do happen. Surely, given all the information surrounding sexual feelings in a relationship going on, this can’t be normal and this can’t also be happening to a guy’s peers as well, or can it?
Then there is that complicated subject of sex and love. Guys quickly learn that the two are not necessarily the same, and one might happen without the other. Generally, women are wired differently and most see a sexual relationship as an outcome of love. The idea that a lot of guys seem to have that sexual expression can come first and that sex is worthwhile from a sheer pleasure perspective even if love is not quite there seems to make many women uneasy. And, of course, the whole idea that a guy would ever want to jerk off by himself for the sheer fun of experiencing it leaves a lot of women in a really uneasy situation.
So, what does all of this have to do with a guy jerking off by himself while wearing a lowly swim brief or, for that matter, while wearing any other clothing item that helps a guy get off. A lot of guys are quite fearful of getting anywhere near any item of clothing, however mundane, that might help cause an erection to occur. Yet there are entire Web vendor sites that sell nothing other than items of clothing that have no purpose other than to get a guy horny and in a jerk-off mode. It’s the kind of dual psychology going on here that has always fascinated me as well as how guys somehow cope with that.
I’ve watched movies, a good example being the Terrance Howard flick called “Pride” in which an inner city swim team has its first real encounter with the idea of wearing a swim brief and then how the swimmers react to the entire idea of having their groins encased in a snug-fitting brief. The mixture of the curious (will this feel down “good” down there?) intermingled with the sheer terror of the possible response being getting a noticeable erection (or horror of horrors, an ejaculation) in the presence of one’s male peers coupled with the natural curiosity about how other guys my age will or will not be able to cope when faced with the same situation.
Nearly every guy by the time he has reached young adulthood, has developed a list of clothing items that help make him feel horny. A relatively small number of females even realize that all of this exists. What goes on this list? Well, that depends. These lists tend to be very personal with a lot of the items related to athletics or sport of some sort. But there are some basic things on the list as well. Jockey is generally regarded as the inventor of brief-style underwear for males, and as I understand the story this really took off in the 1930s where objectively guys quickly adopted the newfound style because it gave them much more freedom of movement whereas in reality a lot of guys probably went for the idea because they thought it would keep them in a steady state of “semi-arousal”.
In modern times, guys seem to have gone back and forth between loose-fitting styles likely to cause minimal “issues” in this regard and snug-fitting styles that almost seem designed to put both physical and psychological “pressure” on a guy’s sexual “buttons”. Plus there is the possibility of compression-like jammer styled underwear that is going to comer more skin, but be equally snug plus often being really slick. And by this time in his life what guy DOESN’T” know that the underside of his penis loves to be rubbing against snug-fitting, smooth, stretchy fabric, whether brief or long-legged.
Do we have to wear a swim brief in order to swim on the school team?
Do we have to wear a wrestling singlet in order to wrestle at a school event?
What about those jock straps? Will I be required to wear one? And how will my “stuff” feel squished into a cup?
There is something physical going on here, but also something psychological going on that is interesting to try and cope with. Very interesting to be sure.
To be continued…
In this part, I am going to discuss some ideas that most guys are very reluctant to admit to or openly discuss with anyone—and that list includes parents, siblings, male friends, female friends or literally anyone. What I am about to say applies not only in the post-puberty teen years but also may represent closely-guarded “secrets” that continue to apply to guys in relationships, married or not, and even throughout a guy’s adulthood. What could be so important to a guy that it is necessary to keep as such a closely-guarded secret, anyway?
Well, the answer to that question of course is anything that has to do with solo sex, more commonly known as masturbation. I have thought about this a lot and also about how this applies to those in a sexual relationship with another person or not. As many of my readers know, another aspect of this involves situations where two males, are, say roommates in a college dormitory, and exactly what happens there.
As a young guy growing up, a guy quickly learns that anything involving jerking off needs to be done privately and without attracting the attention of anyone else who might be in a position to learn something even inadvertently about what a guy is doing. Of course, a guy also quickly learns that pulling this off without leaving any post-ejaculatory traces to be uncovered is all but impossible to do. At minimum, there are those starchy yellowish stains that show up on whatever a guy wears to bed at night, on the sheets, or worse. Whoever does the laundry, say your older sister or even mom, is going to see something that suggests that the guy must have gotten off.
Then there is the problem of nocturnal emissions, or so called wet dreams, which end up probably leaving a trail of crusty stains in the morning. Is it better to act as if these stains occurred while the guy was completely asleep and not awake and helping the process along a little? In short, can some “remnants” of ejaculating be more easily rationalized or explained away? And who really cares if the event was a true nocturnal emission while asleep or something the guy may have encouraged in some manner. This is no small problem for a teen male, who probably is confronting all of this on a daily (or nightly) basis and each “event” may require a new approach for dealing with the post-ejaculatory consequences.
Then guys also quickly learn that if night time jerking off is fun, doing the same during the day can easily be more fun. But then there are additional problems relating to privacy and being discovered as well as covering your tracks. Male shower masturbation is the choice for a lot of guys because (1) a shower is usually private and (2) the post-ejaculatory “evidence” gets washed down the shower drain.
Still, this is not a perfect solution either, and most guys come up with alternative methods as well.
To be continued…
Interestingly, this is where the items of snug-fitting clothing enter the story. But first, let me make a couple points with respect to basic male anatomy.
First, the penis is highly sensitive to anything that touches it, except that one also needs to realize that the sensitivity of a guy’s penis becomes much stronger and psychologically more interesting if there is an erection going on. Obviously guys function normally with a flaccid penis under whatever clothing they are wearing, and they somehow “tolerate” the sensation of whatever cloth is touching, rubbing or brushing against their penises in their normal daily activities without constantly going into erection mode.
The sensitivity of a guy’s penis is not the same over its entire surface. There are warmer spots and cooler spots in this regard. Touching, rubbing or stroking the top side of a guy’s penis in general will elicit less of an involuntary erection response that the exact same thing happening on the penis underside. There is a biological reason why this occurs which I won’t go into here except to say that if a guy wants to quickly get an erection he needs to focus his efforts on the underside of the penis. The glans or tip that is also largely on the underside is a real ejaculatory “hot spot”, so hot in fact is attention is directed toward that small area many guys can and do ejaculate even before.
For guys, in normal daily activity wearing ordinary clothing the flaccid penis will be pointed downward with any clothing item such as underwear only touching the top side of the penis. This allows a guy to go about his normal day without being concerned about the possibility of accidentally getting an erection just from what he is wearing down there.
The whole idea of wearing loose-fitting cotton boxer shorts is linked to the idea of not wanting to have to deal or cope with an unwanted erection occurring in an inappropriate time or place.
As the fit of the underwear becomes snugger, the possibilities for placing oneself in a position other than down are enhanced. It depends on what a guy would like to have happen and whether or not whatever happens occurs in what can be called a “safe” area or not. A snugger-fitting pair of cotton briefs, or even a longer-legged pair of what are called boxer briefs, allows a guy to put himself into another position, still flaccid, but pointing forward not down. Interestingly, unlike the down position, this gives a guy access to the underside of his penis. A lot of guys discover that with that access, it doesn’t take more than a few strokes to begin to get hard. This is the way many guys must begin to learn the nuances what it takes to have a great masturbation session. After all, the cotton briefs will do a nice job of collecting the ejaculate and can be easily tossed into the weekly wash without raising comment from others whoever they might be.
Of course, as a guy gets harder the penis can move from the forward position to the up position with the underside of the penis rubbing against the cloth of the brief. But it is at about this point that a guy learns that the type of cloth used in the undergarment matters in terms of how all of this feels down there and that a smooth stretchy fabric introduces some sensations not obtainable from, say a coarser-textured pair of cotton briefs. But wearing something in a smooth slick fabric will also signal to male peers (say in the locker room of a gym) that you are aware of all of this, and probably, well… The issue of course is that other males probably know why you are doing what you are doing and are, at minimum, at least amused by what they think might be happening.
That hasn’t stopped the underwear manufacturers from coming up with lots of designs aimed at attracting buyers who want to engage in this type of behavior alone or with a partner. Options are everywhere. Further as guys enter adulthood, chances are they have accumulated a bunch on items they find useful in pleasuring themselves. Younger guys keep some of this stuff hidden in the back of a dresser drawer. College roommates face additional issues in this regard, especially roommates who somehow think they need to convince each other that they never masturbate.
The list of items guys like to jack off in include not only pieces snug-fitting underwear of various sorts and swimming briefs but also other items such as athletic supporters, wrestling singlets, compression gear etc. Each guy has a separate list of things he likes and each guy thinks at some level there must be something “wrong’ with him for pursuing this stuff.
Still, what guy would NOT like to secretly have a snug fitting swim brief in his dresser drawer just simply to jerk off in periodically? What possible “harm” can there be to that?
To be continued…
You seem to ignore, Sebbie, that some guys as teens had "jerk off" buddies. They may or may not have jerked each other off, and they may or may not have gone beyond that.
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