The Ancient Romans considered a young man whose tunic covered his knees to be effeminate. The modern 3/4 length shorts based on women's brothel creepers are rather camp, while shorts that just hide or just show the knees have a camp eunuch effect when worn by a plump clammy man.
Shorts worn well above the knees are manly, practical and sportive. Speedos are the right thing to wear in the water and are neither gay nor effete.

On the radio today was a talk by a man who had been called gay from the age of 6 because he did not like football or being beaten up and dumped in muddy puddles. At the age of 11 he discovered that gay men had sex with other gay men, he had never thought of doing this and still didn't intend trying it. As he had accepted his gay identity he felt a failure as he felt no gay lust. From an early age the str8 community seem rather confused at just what it is they are prejudiced about and are supposed to hate. So they go paddling in their effeminate brothel creeper 3/4 length shorts and complain that the swimmers in speedos look gay.

good summaries
 

I enjoyed those posts and as tw* says the more it is explained the more it is likely to confuse - but Dooley has picked up the salient points.
I think we have to blame the staff at the knitting mills in Sydney in 1928 for kicking all this off - just as we have to blame Mr Hoover for a short name easy to remember for his vacuum cleaner home appliance (which even turned into a verb for the action of cleaning the carpets).

By my own rule of thumb a speedo style suit from Speedo is solely of that brand and a speedo from Adidas, a speedo from Turbo, a speedo from Arena, etc etc etc etc , account for the rest.
The difference between board shorts and speedos seems to be clear for most but it is the body-coverage between each and what is designed to be a loose/tight fit and more up or more down the thigh which causes all the confusion (not helped by journalists who don't know what they are talking about in fashion articles which crop up in trendy magazines - but I do agree with Mies Van De Rohe that less is often more).

*in the Roman reportage I still don't understand the context of "clammy" and for my generation brothel creepers were nothing to do with shorts, but the shoes of Teddy Boys.

Isn't a bikini something only a woman wears, to differentiate it from the one-piece bathing suit?

Whereas for a man it's just a brief, as they don't wear a suit that covers the chest, like a woman's one piece suit.

Bede, I am sure that the technical definition of some types of swimsuits is bikini. Having been a competitive swimmer, we wore some pretty tight and narrow suits, but we always called them swimsuits or briefs or racers. I just don't think many guy swimmers would use the bikini word. I am still of that mind today. Even my most narrow of suits do not get the bikini title. Maybe just a hang up.....

what's in a word?
 

Yes - the bikini word is not used by guy SWIMMERS as STS says - and briefs and racers have always been suitable terminology in my mind to know what I am talking about in the speedo context.
Bikini is only a two piece worn by women instead of a full torso suit?
Well, no - so many of the girls want to go topless these days that the breast section is discarded. In fact, as demonstrated in several posts on this forum, some guys will also want to purchase ONLY the FEMALE bikini bottoms for something brief to wear (Roxy etc. proving quite desirable).

All very confusing but there was of course a time when the one-piece woollen suit with chest coverage was the 'appropriate' attire for MEN when bathing (see vintage pics of lifeguards for one thing). After that the coming of the Speedo speedo must have been a very avant garde way to display the male physique (even if a compromise was reached with waistlines up to the rib cage).

The Brazilians interestingly take a separate line here.
Tangas were once the minimum brief (the male 'bikini' which was prevalent on the beaches of Rio) but , almost overnight , tangas became only for the girls and the guys would wear instead the ubiquitous and larger sungas (and to translate that into non-Portuguese terminology we might say square cut speedos for those).

I guess we can debate what we call our swimsuits ad infinitum, so based on the historical perspectives presented by Torchwatch, Byron, and Sebbie, and the competitive racing background presented by STS, I suggest that each one of us call our suits what we want. So, whether my suit is low cut, high cut, with side seams of 1", 1.5", 2", or 2.5", from now on, I'll be wearing briefs.

D67

I only call them speedos because that's the term used for brief racing suits by the general public. I mostly wear sporti or dolphin brand but who would understand "wear your dolphin to work day"?
The Speedo Corp.should be very happy to have such incredibly superior top of mind awareness of their brand. They make my favorite goggles. But their suits cost too much and rarely have patterns that appeal to me.

Why Speedo would not be happy....
 

Brands can lose their right to exclusivity (in the US, a trademark) when a term becomes so common that it is considered "generic." A company like Speedo while flattered, has to be concerned that they actually lose the exclusive use of the term Speedo (regardless of caps) if it becomes the accepted term beyond just the branding. Kleenex went through this, which is why Kleenex ads in the 60's and 70's went out of their way to say "Kleenex brand facial tissues." Xerox had a similar issue back in the 70's and 80's when the term became almost general for a photocopy. In Byron's post above he actually refers to the "Speedo speedo." Interestingly, if you look at any of the swimwear brands, at least the major ones, they do not use the term speedo to refer to any style of their swimwear, and neither do any of the major swim retailers (Swimoutlet, Metro, etc.).

usage
 

I used the diminutive (or genericised) purely in recognition of what half the world says (mostly inaccurately) as a description of the mid-body male attire which we discuss.
The absence of speedo in promotions by other swimwear manufacturers and/or retailers
is not difficult to explain as it is hardly good ad-copywriter psychology to introduce the well known name of a big competitor into the customer's mind
at that point.
One would not after all expect to see an advertisement from Electrolux which
says "come and see our splendid new range of hoovers".

Speedo International and Speedo ABV Holdings were not happy with Dave-go-to-hell-Evans a while back about the use of AussieSpeedoGuy on his website as the content , of questionable taste , under such a title was considered damaging to their trade-marked worldwide image.
The Australian Federal Court ruled in favour of the Speedo action in 2010 and DE subsequently removed the word
from the domain name. He is however still free to call himself AussieSpeedoGuy. Whether it was worth all the trouble of launching expensive litigation to achieve this is for separate debate - but, for all I know, it may have been a decision by Pentland to make an example of him to other similar website operators after he had apparently been uncooperative.

Maybe we should ask the older generation Aussies to bring us back to the nice old neutral word cozzie to relieve the agony of so much soul-searching ?:)

usage
 

Speedo International did not want to go the way of Jello Inc. When Kraft foods bought the Jello Inc they thought got exclusive rights to the word jello too and sued many companies over it up to the US Supreme Court and Kraft lost because jello became part of our lexicon.Back in the late 70's early 80's when you heard the word speedo you knew what it was. When a manufacturer referred to their swimsuit as a speedo and people bought them that's when they trademarked the word so other manufacturers can't use the word speedo in their description of their swimwear.

I did warn you that this would become confusing, now it is mired in legal red tape.

Brand Names
 

This reminds me of my days (long ago) working at the newspaper. We reporters would try our best to get brand names through the copy editors without capitalization: frisbee, dumpster, kleenex, speedo.... Any one of them in print without the capital letter would earn you a friendly letter from the trademark holder's attorney reminding you that the word is a proper noun. They knew they couldn't do anything about it. So the letters were always "friendly" reminders. Unfortunately, the copy editors rarely missed these attempts.

Better change the title -'the reason briefs are stigmatised'!

good idea....
 

:) Linking brief to attorney becomes most appropriate here (neither is trade-marked I hope!)

No doubt a mire of legal red tape has occupied some space on the speedo stigma thread but I for one would like to thank members for their recent enlightening posts.

PS: Brothel-creepers are shorts or shoes??

I seriously doubt that trademarked names would be of concern when used on a casual discussion board such as this one.

Furthermore, taking formal legal action might actually back fire since Speedo probably wouldn't to get public attention by complaining that an "adult site" is promoting their product as an object for erotic and sexual gratification (even through anyone with even poor eyesight knows Speedos are in fact erotic and exciting).

Regardless, the term speedo has surpassed the brand, Like photoshopping, kleenex, coke(in some areas)... As hinted at earlier mush of the stigma is the public assumption that if one goes out of his way to wear a speedo he must be posing or trying to show off and force his body to be more visible and in this society men are supposed to be reserved and not stand out.

Look at other areas of common mainstream male fashion. Most of it is business and work attire. Sure I love my beat up Levi's but a single pair weighs about 20times as much as a womans sundress. It is still workwear. Swimsuits fall into the category of fashion that doesn't have a casual work option (work is a wetsuit) so they design suits to appear like a combination of work and play with pockets, zippers, straps & bold patterns. Additionally images of women in bikinis are so prevalent in today's society that people just assume that is a garment that represents feminimity and thus shouldn't be worn by a man. While womens bikinis are often feminine in nature the solid plain brief/bikini style of suit is androgynous and historically has been worn by men for much longer in current society. Even in ancient rome the subligaria had a similar male counterpart...

Roman subligar
 

(female garment subligaria) (not trademarked I believe)
https://p.gr-assets.com/540x540/fit/...39/6921490.jpg
Yes indeed (pic for males from movie set).
Novice combatants would start with a white cloth but later be awarded red (for blood) if having proved themselves and pleased the crowd in the arena.

The male counterpart was known as the Perizoma and yes they lookred exactly like the above picture...

At my local pool you are as likely to find a woman wearing a bikini as a man wearing briefs ie. not often. Yet bikinis are available everywhere to buy - even in supermarkets.

Of course with swimming costumes are only noticed when entering and leaving the pool, which is a problem for the bikini wearer who wants to be noticed at all times.

last year...
 

:eek: saw THREE together at mine - nearly fainted but sighting never repeated.
Each with two triangles and a bandage, make-up and painted nails etc. and
no swimcap would be big enough to contain the hair.
All posing of course - sitting on pool ledge and at most getting wet to the ankles.

Humpty Dumpty
 

I quote here exact descriptions from same supplier on the
same webpage:

This is a mens Hologram sheer swimwear bikini:
http://cdn.hotfrog.com/companies/Buf...4530_image.JPG
Crazy to describe as bikini - I would say square cut speedo


This is a Mens Print Insert Bikini Swimwear:
http://cdn.hotfrog.com/companies/Buf...4536_image.JPG
I would say brief speedo but this is the limit of brevity for
me to use the term

celebrity hesitance
 

The difficulties rarely understood:
http://www.theage.com.au/comment/who...713-zt63t.html

To answer post#71 I feel this is well worth reading and
sports commentators and invited "pundits" would be first in my firing line (for pundit read guy with loud mouth pushed in to fill broadcast time but so inarticulate that the mute button is best pressed for the duration).

Just two celebrity examples: Ian Thorpe saying no in his autobiography of two years ago but yes in
his tv interview yesterday. Tom Daley saying bi on YouTube this year but now seems happy to say fully gay.

Maybe things are changing
 

I have been swimming at my local Y for about 6 weeks just about every day. Today while I was doing my laps there were 5 people in the pool, all men. Of the 5 of us, 2 were wearing briefs; me - a 1.5" Nike water polo brief, the other guy about my age was wearing what looked like a 3" Speedo; 2 were wearing square cuts, and one was wearing a boxer style trunk. This is the first time that briefs and square cuts were the predominant style. So things might be changing in the direction we have been talking about.

Earlier in the week, in the locker room I was changing into one of my Turbo suits after working out, having a conversation with a couple of guys I've talked with before. No dirty looks, no raised eyebrows; I was just a guy getting ready to swim. The same thing happened in the sauna, just ordinary conversation with no grimaces or negative comments. Both STS and I have said that people in Maine are very accepting and non judgmental which probably accounts for getting no negative reactions, but the kind of suits worn today in the pool is very promising. I hope it continues.

D67

if married....
 

:mad: For those who can bear to read this crap from ChristWire the speedo comes up in item13:
http://www.ryanseacrest.com/2010/08/...and-may-be-gay

Relax, Byron, Christwire is a spoof, a satire like the Onion or the Duffel Blog. You're supposed to laugh at it.

Asinine article... I know fab gay guys, goth gay guys, and hardcore welder gay guys... Some straight guys are effimate and some gay guys are hardcore masculine.

In other news (I heard this on KFI the #1 Talk/News radio in the LA area) Speedos are a bit more acceptable. http://www.marketwatch.com/story/201...ity-2014-07-14

Phew! I only wear a Speedo at the pool. I must be straight!

I wear my "speedo" (sic) at the beach, lake and pool, and when I do I am bare-chested (but aren't most guys). I have a gym membership mostly to use the pool, not much else. I don't use the shower or sauna to get picked up, and when I get home from the gym I am still interested in sex. Damn, I must be a confused mess...

If married
 

Well, I only meet 6 of the criteria in the article which undoubtedly and with complete statistical significance and with empirically verifiable data, explains why I'm mostly straight but "somewhat" gay. Now I know why I like my house to be neat and I like to look my best; I feel so relieved - I've been worried about that for so many years!

I hope nobody takes that article seriously.

D67

Who says conservatives can't be funny. I thought the article was an attempt to be funny and it succeeded in doing just that.

Shaulis

spoof
 

OK :D :D :D
(the trouble with being taken in by this stuff is that it is clearly OTT but one only has to listen to the born-again guys to realise just how OTT they can be
in their condemnations of sinful behaviour)

(good to note the Expedia beach survey material which, if true, shows a surprising but pleasing
74% speedo approval)

letting the side down
 

Re. post#107, do I see perhaps just one speedo in action here in the hot weather?
http://www.theguardian.com/world/pic...brockwell-lido

a note to "so called Fashion Guru's"
 

Swim briefs aka "Speedos" stigmatised by main stream media by so called fashion idiots who actually don't have a clue, whats the bet that they never really get out and are the weirdo types that sit behind a screen most of their day sitting away at a desk, not to mention the tons of "freebies" they get from branded clothing companies made in low labour rate sweat shops.

The same can be said for research diet pills "Pioneered by scientist and endorsed by doctors" how do you pioneer something that cannot be proven and a doctor that endorses something, how does he/she have that ability to know that it will work for everyone, so, so called "Fashion guru's" where do you get off saying that the instyle is now and that a certain style is like so last week, what gives them the right and what gives them the authority to decide this.

I know I never gave them that right, but sadly the majority get off by buying fashion styles as its a sense of spending money for a new look, how sad.
And no I don't look like a scumbag as I do have a sense of dress code.
For example a nice white T shirt and a pair of jeans still looks awesome, buy hey you're not in if thats how you dress according to these know it all fashion guru's

The same goes for mass hysteria around movie/music stars, I'm still baffled how people go on about this or that in the entertainment industry, who gives a ****

Now I know a few will be annoyed by this but its the same for owning a Harley Davidson, when you buy one you buy a life style otherwise you're not in with the rest.

Why buy a life style, what's the point.. we all have our own individual right to self determination so use that to your own ability and stop chasing what's the now, lifes to short.

Fashion guru's, go get a real job

I can't understand men having a problem swimming in them, as being immersed in water you're not particularly noticeable, which takes care of the modesty issue.

I think it depends on how you define "swimming."
As far as I can tell, guys whp are in the pool doing laps as their daily fitness workout are perfectly comfortable being seen doing that in briefs.
Body builders hanging out at the beach wearing briefs aren't swimming, they are posing. They are comfortable, too, I assume.
To me, it boils down to being proud of my swimmer's physique and not being ashamed to share it with anyone who appreciates seeing it. Like the bodybuilder, I worked hard for it and like to show it, so in that sense I'm a poser, too.
If I thought I was disgusting or offending people I'd wonder why. Are they jealous? Intimidated? Repressed?

This debate is endless and will never come to a conclusion that everyone agrees with. I have only recently become a serious swimmer (2 months) and have changed the type of briefs I wear - the ones that are tighter, sturdier, low cut and hold my equipment in place. But I've been wearing speedos forever because I like how they feel and fit. I was not a poser and I'm sure there are lots of other speedo wearers who fall into the category that I was in. Speedos, when worn respectfully and in good taste (no thongs or sheer briefs) when around families and children are for anyone who wants to wear them. People shouldn't get hung up on what others think. Just be yourself and be comfortable in what you wear.

D67

fashion.....
 

I saw a newspaper pic of a female airhead recently captioned as "xxxxxxxx - best known in social circles as a celebrity for being a celebrity"
- that just about sums it up I think.

(she was falling out of a nightclub in the early hours at the time - as is the fashionable way to be seen )

Looks like one of them is wearing a frogman suit!

I wondered too...
 

... water temperature not up enough for some perhaps despite the description of a "cooling dip" (have to be careful in observing such a distance shot however - full body suits are available to be modest for Moslem girls wishing to swim)

I agree with Dooley67. If you're comfortable in what you wear and it's tastefully worn it should be alright.